Thursday, November 15, 2012

Question - Warriors

My question is:-

Do warriors get enough of a bonus for all their training by getting one extra combat add per level?

Does that give them the edge over rogues and wizards in a fair fight? Does that make them the natural fighting leaders for a party of dungeon delvers?

Answers appreciated!

Khaghbboommm (Mark)

Thanks for all the answers!

 My take remains that they need one whole dice per level as a bonus not just one add to make them stand out as fight leaders after all that training...

Still attracted to the WG selling khremm boosting amulets to give them help against the dominant wizards of G'noll's Trollworld...


  1. Per the current rules, trained Fighters also get their double armor bonus.

    I've put, in the arena-combat-themed solo adventure I'm writing, rules that give an edge to trained fighters. Generally, a reduced saving roll level to accomplish some special task. e.g., Instead of a L2 SR DX to chop the peg leg off of an opponent, a warrior would only need a L1 SR.

    Many years ago I suggested that warriors could get "spite dice." Perhaps one per level. Spite dice are rolled separately from standard combat dice. The total doesn't add to the combat total. The only thing that counts is the number of 6s that come up . . . resulting in more Spite damage.

    Another variant that occurred to me. A Warrior could use some of her extra armor points to defend other party members. In practice, this means she throws herself in front of other, weaker party members. Up to half of the armor BONUS could be used to defend others.

    Example: Rolfar is wearing leather armor (5) and carries a buckler (3). Because he is a warrior, he gets 16 points of protection from this combination. Eight of these are "bonus" points. He can use up to four of them defending another player, or players.

    1. Those seem like very good ideas.
      Do you have a Trollhalla name?

    2. Stefan Jones / Starff Orenggk

    3. Excellent. So you are going to write a new solo? That is great news :-) I'm still working on Dark Temple, though.

  2. I think more than the combat adds, the armor bonus is a far more powerful special ability than the bonus combat adds for the Warrior Level. Being able to double the damage taken based on Armor hits, Jherrrii the Great takes/absorbs a lot of hits.

    I would imagine that Rogues and Wizards will concentrate their attribute increases on INT/WIZ/DEX/LCK more so that STR/DEX/SPD/LCK Combat Adds would not progressively go up as fast for non-warriors.

  3. Never worried about it, because I always disliked the concept of balanced play. OD&D came with that albatross because it came from miniature wargames - yet surely Gygax realized that miniature gaming had wandered from the original concept of simulation gaming. That is, to simulate the conditions of a conflict, and see if different strategy or tactics might change the outcome. The then-newer version of wargaming insisted that each side be balanced in some way, to be fair to each player.

    In rolegaming, as in heroic fiction, I never expected anything to be fair. And after the first few adventures I ran, nothing was ever fair in my campaigns again.

    So it's a moot (not "mute" - please spread the word of useful language) point to me.

    Nonetheless, I point out that warriors seem to make out fine in most TnT games, and the arena solos are designed for them to have the greater advantage when other classes ARE allowed in said solos.

    *jeep! & God Bless!
    --Grandpa Chet, the MormonYoYoMan

  4. Give warrior PC player's the sanctioned option of throwing individual circus peanut pieces at the player/gm of their opponent for each point of spite damage inflicted OR using the +1/lvl combat adds & double's that? Bonus: now a use for circus peanuts!

  5. Given equivalent stats, and banning magic, a Warrior with doubled armor will smash a Wizard or a Rogue. Plus the Warrior will probably have better combat adds, and be able to handle a heavier, more damaging weapon, than a Rogue or Wizard with the same total stats. It balances well enough. --G'Noll

  6. How about letting spite damage for a warrior equal one-half of his levels? I also think a 'talent' for a particular weapon or hand-to-hand ability is appropriate. Yorrdy is a blade master (+6) with his Khennzdaggers. With my system his spite damage would be 5 points per 6 rolled. Not that he needs it with 300+ combat adds.
    (couldn't get the comment posted- never have any luck or skill with computers )
    Mad Roy

  7. Hey Mark --

    I haven't been actively playing T&T in too long... I don't know the recent (as in "last 10 years or more") permutations of combat or the discussions that have even led to this question. I appreciate that you want my view (a lot!), and I hope I'm not making myself seem indifferent to T&T (I'm not), but I'm no longer qualified to weigh in on game balance or mechanics. World creation, culture and society (and how it derives), and meta-content of that sort ... that I can (and do) contribute to as the team is working on dT&T. But mechanics are all Ken's now. That was never my forte in any case, even back in the day. :)

    Good luck working this out!


  8. Nope--even with the double armor, warriors should have something to reward them for not being tainted by magical aptitude. Perhaps a variation of kremm resistance.

    1. Indeed! Take Conan, for example. He is endowed with an innate ability to resist magic. Warriors get 1 special bonus point in combat per level. Along the same line, what about giving warriors one bonus point per level for the sake of determining their kremm resistance?

  9. I like the idea of spite dice and really like 'lending' armor defense to weaker players. Perhaps either of these could be gained by selecting an appropriate Talent, which would make them more like special abilities. Not every warrior knows how to, or is willing to, throw himself in front of the blade to save his companions.

    I think the system works as it stands. The double armor is, I agree, the cream of the warrior's cup, but the Level bonus is a nice little extra as well, and gets better in time. The only real down side to the Level bonus is that it can take a long time to reach those high levels. The Level bonus is sort of like the Saving Roll Level Bonus, not much, but just enough when you need it!

    I really want to see going berserk return to the next version of the T&T rules.

    1. Hey, me too.
      In fact, the berserk rule exists in T&T 8, the French edition, and I used it in the adventure I play on Trollbridge. It definitely gives my poor human warrior an edge.

  10. Damage is distributed by the party's choice you can already focus the lionshare of taken damage to those that can absorb it...the warriors.

    Unless you are speaking to some additional ability that allows some of the warriors armor to extend as a sort of double bonus, I think this is already inherrent in the system.

  11. I would like to see beserk rules firmly in place - Ken did write a piece on this in the Outer Sanctum a while ago

  12. I think one extra add in combat is worth far less than one extra into a saving roll for level so I'm going to stick with my one extra dice.
    From a GM point of view, its no bother a L4 warrior getting 4 extra dice (average 14 extra to combat total) because you just adjust the MRs upwards.
    It does mean that the warriors really are the key attack option and not just a defensive sink (re the double armour bonus).

  13. I also like Griptooth's Conan analogy re kremm protection but haven't thought through a 'logical' reason as to how it would happen...

  14. Warriors leave their Kremm untouched. They never use their Kremm actively, only passively. That makes their Kremm twice as effective when used as a defense. Plus, don't forget that "Oddly enough, Warrior societies and guilds understand this fact about spell-users. In order to counterbalance magical power, in fact, they deliberately train the ability to visualize psychic patterns out of their students (i.e., choosing those with relatively low INT), while on the other hand training them to build up as much kremm energy as they can (a high WIZ score is a good thing for anyone!). Without the ability to cast spells but with natural resistance to magic, they can be fairly effective against Wizards and other spell-casters." (page 88 of the 7th edition rulebook).

  15. Good point and sorry for calling you Griptooth :)

  16. That's all right Khapoommm :-)
    I'll only eat one of your leg, then, the one I was pulling :-)